Just One More Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 When I first moved into this house I thought the neighbor's driveway was closer than usual to my house but the house had the living quarters for Michael finished in the basement so I foolishly didn't investigate further. Then we had the sewer pipes needing to be replaced the first two months of moving in and the basement flooded last May because the basement finishing wasn't up to code, which gave us 4 inches of standing water for three days or more. So much for the finished basement. The hardwood floors under the dirty carpet carpet were also covered with hundreds of shoe prints in latex paint. All these problems took all the money I had planned to use to fix the place up, new paint, carpet, kitchen floor etc. Then he widened his driveway. Now my neighbor's have put their house up for sale and it's pending. I thought before the new people moved in I'd have a privacy fence put up between my house and their driveway/carport since who knows what the the new people will park there. Well, doing the right thing, I called around to check on the laws regarding fences and called the utility companies before having my SIL start digging holes for the posts. The City said you had to be three feet away from your neighbor's property line. Well my dear neighbor's super wide driveway is three feet from my bedroom wall so he is absolutely way over my property line. The wall of your house is not the property line. I called the City and was told he never got a permit for the carport or widening the driveway. We barely had room to put up an 8' long fence and it is only 2 and 3/4 feet from my outside wall. Now, looking at where my back yard fence which is chain link is, it is obvious his concrete is almost three feet past my fence line. I asked him if he knew where the property line is and he said no and walked away. The City says I'd have to get a surveyor and that costs $250.00. If they are over my line I have to take them to court to have the driveway and car port removed. Remax is selling their house and it still says sale pending. I called the name on the sign and asked the realtor if was he aware he may be handling a sale of a house with a question about the property line and he didn't seem concerned. Wouldn't you think a real estate company would make sure of what they are selling for a customer if a question is raised. It's obvious if you look at it from the street he is over the line. My daughter says she'll pay for the surveyor. I talked to one today and he said if the neighbor has put concrete over the pins it may take some doing to find them. It's not like an acre of land or something but I'd have to hire a surveyor and go to court over all this and they are moving so I'd most likely have to take the new people to court. It's like they stole my property and I'm paying taxes on their driveway. It feels awful to be so ripped off and I think Remax should look into this now that it's been brought to their attention. Has anyone else had this happen? This is why there are wars. I know how I can get when pushed to far and it's not pretty. I'm going to look for a senior assistance attorney tomorrow and see what can be done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pin1056 Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 wow sounds an expensive task....but maybe worth it so the new neighbours know what they are getting into...also for resale for you...it could hold up you selling one day :thumb: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doogster Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 Bottom line. if they're on your property THEY have to remove it at THEIR cost. End of statement. Don't think their realtor wants you to know that do you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KathieB Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 Pay for the survey. Doesn't matter if the turkey covered the pins. It can still be surveyed using the pins on the far side of your yard and the far side of the lot on the other side of his. Once you have the survey and know that he's over the line, the city inspector can contact the owner with a 30-day letter to remove the infringement. At that point, it's between the city and the owner and the city will take him to court if he doesn't make it right. If nothing is done over a period of time, the stolen land will eventually become his property. I've forgotten the amount of time or what the legal name for it is, but basically, if you say nothing, you're in effect abandoning the property and eventually he will own it. I can't imagine buying a house without seeing a copy of the survey, but the new owners may not be that prudent. Don't wait. Do it now. And good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lisa_F Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 Bottom line. if they're on your property THEY have to remove it at THEIR cost. End of statement. Don't think their realtor wants you to know that do you? In addition to this, if you have to take them to court over it and the court finds in your favor, you can recover the attorney/court fees as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corwin Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 Gah I hate neighbors. We never have any good ones. If we do they move right away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KathieB Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 On the other hand ... we have great neighbors. I went to both of them to tell them we're going to have fencing. Both of them volunteered that if any trees or bushes are in the way, we can go ahead and cut them down! On the one side there are two scrawny trees growing right up against the ugly fence that is there now. They'll both come down. I'll enjoy the extra benefit of not having their shade on my little garden. :thumb: And on the other side, some bushes will be destroyed. Both neighbors said no problem with the workers coming onto their property to work on the backsides of the fence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justmesue Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 We are lucky here. In Canada a house cannot be sold without a survey on file. If a house does not have a survey, then title insurance must be purchased to garantee the existing building has always been in it's present location, and not encroaching on neighboring properties. Also if any building, driveways... are build without a permit, one call to the city, and they must remove it, at their own cost. I would certainly go after what was rightfully mine. I say fix this before it gets worst-who knows what the next guy will want to add! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lynette Smith Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 In addition to building code violations, unlawful conversion of property, unjust enrichment, and so forth your neighbors have violated your constitutional rights set forth in the 4th and 5th amendments: IV: The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall be violated []. This amendment is considered in police actions, but your land has been seized illegally by another agency ((your neighbors)). This is being technical, but the more ways in which your rights have been violated, the quicker will be your remedy to the violation. V. [] nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation. This amendment is your strongest argument against the violation of the boundary of your real property by another. This also allows you to seek remedies in federal court above and beyond that which local and state statues provide. This is not a violation of double jeopardy, since both federal and local laws were breached by the unlawful appropriation of your land. Other actionable causes include: unlawful conversion of property, unjust enrichment, criminal trespass, and failure build without a permit. There are probably several other causes of action of which I am unaware. I am not an attorney, so cannot provide guidance in the specifics regarding the issues at hand. I am a trained paralegal, and as such encourage you in the strongest possible terms to seek legal and civic advice from your local and federal courts, county and/or city agencies which may have some jurisdiction over the issues. Consulting Illinois Legal Aid, and Illinois Legal Services would be a good starting place. Consult an agent regarding your home owners insurance regarding the violation of your property. It may be that they can handle everything. An adjuster nosing arround is a good way to establish a paper trail. Also, file a complaint immediately with the police agency in your jurisdiction to establish a record of the violation, which may be used in any proceedings. You should get as many possible violations and their potential consequences listed and inform both your neighbor and his real estate agents of your cause of action. As further leverage, you may file for a restraining order to prevent the sale of the property until the issue is resolved. You would also be withing your right to get a restraining order to prevent them from continuing to make use of your land (parking on your side of the property line). You are within your rights to begin work to remove the concrete parking pad and any structure which may violate the property line. It would then be your neighbor's responsibility to seek a survey of the property line to prove that he has a right to stop you from exercising your proprietorial rights. The burden shifts away from you and onto your neighbor. Any cost you incur, from a survey, photocopying, to the cost of labor, materials, and tools to remove the concrete, disposal fees, fees for permits for modifying your property, gasoline, and any other reasonable expense is recoverable by you under the law. These costs may be claimed in both federal and local courts, which provides an extra measure of protection against caps on financial recovery if the matter was to be decided in small claims court. The trick is to paint as dire a picture as conceivable to persuade the neighbors that it is in their best interest to relinquish the proprietary interest they have imposed upon your real property, and also to remedy the situation by returning the property to it's previous state. Overwhelming the opposition with information is one of the quickest ways to get the situation resolved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sherry Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 What they all said. That's your property and your neighbor has confiscated it by laying concrete over it for his use. That realtor is lying to you, they can't sell it like that, at least not in Texas. Report him, too-he has legal responsibilities when he knows something is not right, to disclose this to any potential buyers. If he's not doing it, he can get his liscense revoked. Remind him of that, and by all means, call the city inspector. I don't know about Illinois, but in Texas you don't build anything, even a driveway, without a permit, inside the city limits! We Texans are known for getting violent about our land-most of the men I know would be out there with a tape measure, a shotgun, and a jack hammer if someone tried to take 3 feet of their land! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarenC Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 A survey should have been done when you purchased your home and should be in your closing documents. A survey definitely would have been done if you have title insurance. If it wasn't, your agent and title insurance company could be in BIG trouble. You need to go back and look through your closing documents. Also, make your city/county zoning department involved. They will cite him for doing work w/o proper approvals/permits, and he will have to remove it and/or prove it was done legally and correctly. If it wasn't, they will make him remove it. You may have to bug them and go in person to file a complaint, but they shouldn't be pushing it off on you to get a survey. It's their JOB to ensure code compliance and part of that is making sure work is done within property/spacing lines and that work is done WITH required permits/approvals. However, a couple of things. Yes, your house line CAN be your property line depending on how tracts are platted. Though in that case it's usually more than 3' spacing. Also, if you push and get city/county zoning involved be prepared for them to inspect your property as well and to find any zoning/code violation(s). While I agree with most of what Lynette said, I would NOT start to destroy his property. This could cause a confrontation with potential for violence. Our community just had something similar to this happen between neighbors over fencing. The neighbor who started it all by improperly placing a fence ended up having to remove fence, set-in pavers, hot tub, etc. because of improper spacing, non-permitted work, and the fact that fence was placed past their property line. The wronged neighbors though had to actually go to City Hall Zoning and demand an investigation. I'm on the board of directors of our home owner's association so got all the dish because both sides came to the board crying a river and we had to tell them it was the City's jurisdiction. ETA, Oh, write the realtor a certified/return receipt letter stating your belief and your objection to the driveway being on your proprty, mention zoning spacing. A phone call means nothing, it can't be proved. A letter that you have proof was delivered making him aware of a potential problem with the property though dumps everything back on the realtor. He can be held liable by new owners if it can be proved he sold the property knowing about a potential defect. Also, if I was you, I would get this taken care of before the property is sold. You don't want to start out on a really bad foot with new neighbors that you are going to have to live beside for potentially years. Believe me. The neighbors I mentioned above (3 homes) are not speaking to each other now and probably won't for a long time if ever. Karen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just One More Posted May 5, 2009 Author Share Posted May 5, 2009 I called Remax and told them I was getting a surveyor and he told me if I called him again he would call the police and report me for harrassment. He said the seller said he was not over the line. If it turns out they are not on my property Then I don't want to live in this house any longer with only three feet from someones car, truck, boat or whatever. I called State Farm also and am waiting for a call back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justmesue Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 Best of luck-do keep us posted! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heidiiiii Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 Your building inspector should have come out in the car and checked this out in person. He/she will see the improvements that were made without the permit. It should stop ANY sale in it`s tracks. The realtor is being a bully. You need to go over their head. Isn't there an office in your state that handles all realtors? If there is, I would give them a call also. There is such things as disclosure that if not shown in the sale of the property that could get the inspector, Realtor, and seller in a heap of trouble! Give a call to your local Legal Aid off in your city.They will be able to help you out with this also. Good Luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AuntDee Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 You should write a letter to both the home owner and the real estate agent, informing them of the problems and stating you are having a survey done and will notify all authorities who need to know about the situation. Put them on notice. Here in Minnesota homeowners selling a piece of property have to declare all known problems with a house. If they do not disclose a known problem, the buyer can sue them in the future. My son bought a home in St Cloud that had known but undisclosed sewer problems. The former tenant and neighbors testified about the previous owners knowledge of the issues. He lost in court and had to pay for the bringing the sewer system up to code. Call you government center and ask to speak to the law librarian. That department will have the state codes and statuettes (pp??) on file. Act soon to get the ball rolling. Do lot let him take over your property by adverse possession. Also check with the realestate agent you used to purchase the property to see if there is a survery all ready completed and on file. It will save you dollars. Communicate with people and authorities by written documents. It will help you prove your point in any court proceedings. Good luck and don't give up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just One More Posted May 5, 2009 Author Share Posted May 5, 2009 Unfortunately I bought this property through Remax and they just threatened me with the police. This would be funny if it wasn't so awful. The surveyor will be here late today or early tomorrow for sure. If it thrns out they are not over my line then I'd have a heck of a time selling this house the way it is. If I only have three feet from my bedroom wall that is mine I may as well live in an apartment again. Foreclosure anyone/? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chesterfieldzoo Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 My first house was like that. The houses were 12 feet apart. There was the house, 1 foot of flower bed (or whatever) 8 feet of driveway and 3 feet to the wall of the next house. The edge of the concrete was the property line. I am not clear on why he was able to widen his driveway with you living there. Did he do it overnight or while you were away? How could you NOT notice the forms being layed and the cement truck? Why didn't you do something then? I also thought you had to have a survey when you bought a house. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AuntDee Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 In my original post I forgot to say to get pictures. Get pictures of the vehicles parked in the driveway that clearly shows the space between the vehicle and your house. lay a yard stick on the ground which willb e very visible in the picture. Also get pictures of the orginal fence where the lot line is believed to be. with trucks/cars parked in the driveway so the expansion is clear. I would also get pictures of several other driveways in your block so this shows how out of ordinary his driveway is. Don't let the inspectors bully you. Some of them are very lazy and won't leave their desks. (When my son called the city and said he had a question about the sewer line and any complaints made about the backup in the house the inspector said "There have never been any complaints at that address" without even stopping to look up the address. When asked how he knew without checking records he replied he had been at the job for 25 years and kneww all the complaints" Well duh, how about if it came in on his day off? or whille he was on vacation? Call, be the squeeky wheel that gets the grease. Also take notes about the exact time of day that vehicles run..early in the morning?? late at night?? all this will be helpful if your case goes to court. Also if your state has mediation instead of court avoid mediation. Minnesota has that and it is worthless. Brian had mediation and won but the decision is not binding so the previous owner did nothing. Brian had to take it to court to win. What a waste of money and time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicolechip Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 The real estate agent is blowing a lot of hot air, hoping to intimidate you. I'd love to see him call the police! "Hi, police, this lady keeps calling me and politely informing me that my client may have illegally taken 3 feet of her property. Haul her away!" Yeah, I can see the police running right over and taking care of that instead of, say, going after criminals. It really doesn't matter what his client "told" him about the property, it doesn't make it true. If his behavior continues like this, I would contact the manager of Remax and complain. Then start telling everyone you know not to do business with that Remax office. I would send the owner, the real estate agent, and the city registered letters stating your concern, then hire the surveyor. Be sure to refer specifically in the letter to your neighbor's un-permitted widening of the driveway. And if at all possible, contact a real estate attorney. Remember that you are in the right here, and as long as you are polite in your approach, you are well within your rights. Even if it turns out the driveway is legally on your neighbor's property, you have the right to make an inquiry, especially knowing that the work was not permitted through the proper channels. Ultimately, it is better to take care of this now than to let it go until you try to sell your house. What you spend now could be just a fraction of what you would lose on a future sale. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KathieB Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 Pat, you're doing the right thing: first get a survey and find out where the lines are. The surveyor will mark them very plainly with lovely sticks topped with flags or plastic strip banners so the whole world can see what the situation is. If he's over the line, notify the city building inspector, he's the one charged with the responsibility of seeing that owners play nice with their property and what they put on it. I would not start writing letters to the owner or the realtor or anybody, especially since the jackass realtor threatened you. He and the seller are obviously not planning to play fair, and as an individual, you have no leverage. You need to use the local authority to handle this. There is a process for dealing with this kind of infringement and the building inspector will put it in motion. In fact, call the city inspector today and tell him you suspect your neighbor's driveway is over the property line and that you're having a survey done. Ask him what the process is to correct this should your suspicions turn out to be true. You might tell him there is a sale pending, which is what prompted you to get this sorted out now. The inspector may decide to pay a visit while the surveyor is there. He no doubt knows the surveryor, anyway. Don't get overloaded with advice that may be well meant but not pertinent to your town, your situation. Talk to the people who do the job. And if it should turn out that your neighbor is in the right, don't start worrying about selling it. People buy houses for all kinds of reasons. You bought it, didn't you? Someone else will see the best in it and not be concerned about the encroachment. And with a survey in hand, you can show a potential buyer that you're a prudent owner and that they won't have to pay to have a survey done. Hang in there, girl! This will get sorted out one way or another. All you need to do is get the ball rolling, and that you're doing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Missymew Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 I agree with the suggestion that you call your City Planning or Inspection Department. In our city, it is the sellers' responsibility to have a survey completed. Any encroachments must be dealt with (at the property owners' expense) before the property is sold. I think you've been given incorrect information. Its not the city that requires the survey for the purpose of selling a property, its the banks. The city is just the enforcer. Once an encroachment is brought to their attention, they must pursue compliance. -Susanne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grazhina Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 Yes, do be sure to do as others suggested. If the driveway is on your land and you do nothing, you will eventually lose that strip. People often infringe on other people's property with fences, walls, driveways, sheds, you name it. Many communities also have ordinances about how close driveways or structures can be to the property line. A relative found out that their neighbors new retaining wall was 6" over the property line. They called the city and the city had them tear down the wall and rebuild it further back. In our town they're so strict about this sort of thing that they've made people tear whole buildings down. Besides, your neighbor built without a permit, right? They may fine him or make him rip it out anyway, it all depends on how strict the city is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AuntDee Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 Should this case go to court the judge will want to know if you were a polite good neighbor and talked to the property owner. Written evidence is much better than saying "yes we talked out in the driveway". You must notify him in writing of your concerns and your plans to investigate further. A nice, to the point business letter. No throwing accusations or insults. just a nice letter stating your conerns and what you will be doing about the matter (talking to all the proper authorities). We won a lawsuit by haaving written evidence of communication when the defendant did not. It pays off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chesterfieldzoo Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 I think Kathie has made excellent suggestions. Yes, the bank or mortgage provider is the one who wants the surveys made. They technically own the property until you pay them back and they want to make sure of what they are financing. If there is an infringement, the city should take it from there. you should not have to sue them personally. Don't do anything rash until you find out what the truth is. It is 7 years here for take over. If you put up a fence 6 inches over the property line and no one makes you move it, that property becomes yours after 7 years. Also, if the sale goes through and nothing is pending about the property line dispute, the new owners are 'grandfathered' in and may not have to remove it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodentraiser Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 Also don't forget to document when you talked to the realtor and exactly what he said. You may have to sue the new homeowners, but then they may need to sue the realtor and if you're still on speaking terms with your neighbors, you may be able to help them with those records. The realtor is just trying to make a sale. Is there any way you can go directly to the board that licenses realtors and tell them what is going on? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.