doogster Posted November 5, 2006 Share Posted November 5, 2006 Well I took a few minutes this afternoon to try out a couple of solvent adhesives on the White Orchid. I cut a few bits off the scrap Sintra and went at bonding them together. I first tried Testors liquid (none of these solvents are in plastic containers or tubes, they're in glass bottles) since it's Methyl Ethyl Ketone (MEK) a primary ingredient of plumbing cement (Sintra is closed cell expanded PVC per Dean, plumbing pipe is PVC). The Testors didn't touch it, might have well have been using tap water. My next trial was with (my original first choice and favorite adhesive for plastic on the planet) Methylene Chloride, sold as Tenax 7R and Ambroid ProWeld. Well this stuff bonded the two parts so well Tantor the Elephant would have a job getting them apart. And absolutely no mess. Why? Glad you asked. You didn't? Well you should know by now that you should have. Solvents don't 'glue' the parts together, they weld them, they essentially turn the 2 pieces of plastic into 1. And the solvent simply evaporates, so no mess at all, and it all takes place in 10 seconds. How can this be? I hear (man I should do infomercials) you say, it must be really difficult to use! Nope, it's the easiest thing in the world to use. Simply allign your parts (dry fit) run the solvent along the seam, it seaps in through capillary action, press together for 10 seconds, done! I like t run the solvent down both sides of the seam for extra groovy bonding. To get those pieces apart now, you have literally got to tear the plastic. You have not glued your pieces together, you have welded them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hydroped Posted November 5, 2006 Share Posted November 5, 2006 Interresting study - but that would make the solvent adhesive the exact thing I wouldn't want to use. That was my big complaint about my MDF lighthouse... if you ever need to get something appart you pretty much are going to destroy the lighthouse before it comes appart - When working on older dollhouses that need refurbishing one of the things I look for is how much trouble is it going to be to get the parts apart that I need to remove and replace - True I can pretty much take a dremel to a lot of it to do what I want and for door and window openings that's not a problem but I'd rather be able to remove a floor to fix it than have to cut it out and completely scrap it. -David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doogster Posted November 5, 2006 Author Share Posted November 5, 2006 So what would you suggest using? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandy Posted November 5, 2006 Share Posted November 5, 2006 So what would you suggest using? My White Orchid came with a packing list that suggested using "Quick Grip" Glue to put it together. I hope this helps and is what you were asking about. By the way, your first post was very funny, you should do info commercials. lol :thumb: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doogster Posted November 5, 2006 Author Share Posted November 5, 2006 My White Orchid came with a packing list that suggested using "Quick Grip" Glue to put it together. I hope this helps and is what you were asking about. By the way, your first post was very funny, you should do info commercials. lol :thumb: My Orchid came with the same advice. Quick Grip will work, but it's essentially rubber cement, and is messy as hell. Dean sent me the White Orchid for exactly this reason, to evaluate the best adhesives, paints etc. to use on the plastic medium. He posted this a while back. I have been working with plastic for over 30 years. But you know what? You're on your own. I'm just gonna build my Orchid for me, and be happy with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deb Posted November 5, 2006 Share Posted November 5, 2006 Next question Andrew. (or in informercial terms.........."If you act now......") I'm playing with ideas of bonding textiles to the White Orchid......more of an embellishing endeavor on the finished house than decorating it. If I decide to go that route with it, I'm going to be using combinations of fibers and glass. Finding an adhesive that will bond fiber to the Sintra without marking the fabric/fibers may be a bit of a challenge. I'm also going to need a glue that will dry clear, but hold glass beads and pearls to the Sintra. Any thoughts? Deb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
havanaholly Posted November 5, 2006 Share Posted November 5, 2006 Andrew, I have a few questions about the solvent glues (I've only worked with polystyrene, so Testor's is all I've ever used). Is the meth Cl available at hardware stores or hobby shops? What are you using to apply it with? And what about ventilation? I don't generally electrify the houses I build anyway, but if somone wanted to, presumable one could make baseboards to hide the wires from kit scrap. Would the solvent glue not melt the insulation? I like the idea of the glue bonding the seams (one can always cut them apart if one HAS to, it's not like trying to rivet apart pieces of MDF and having them shatter or shred; at least that's what I've done to correct booboos with polystyrene). I do hope you'll do the tutorial with pictures eventually, I'm fascinated with the whole concept of a plastic kit! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Color Me Holly Posted November 5, 2006 Share Posted November 5, 2006 Next question Andrew. (or in informercial terms.........."If you act now......") I'm playing with ideas of bonding textiles to the White Orchid......more of an embellishing endeavor on the finished house than decorating it. If I decide to go that route with it, I'm going to be using combinations of fibers and glass. Finding an adhesive that will bond fiber to the Sintra without marking the fabric/fibers may be a bit of a challenge. I'm also going to need a glue that will dry clear, but hold glass beads and pearls to the Sintra. Any thoughts? Deb Andrew, I have a few questions about the solvent glues (I've only worked with polystyrene, so Testor's is all I've ever used). Is the meth Cl available at hardware stores or hobby shops? What are you using to apply it with? And what about ventilation? I don't generally electrify the houses I build anyway, but if somone wanted to, presumable one could make baseboards to hide the wires from kit scrap. Would the solvent glue not melt the insulation? I like the idea of the glue bonding the seams (one can always cut them apart if one HAS to, it's not like trying to rivet apart pieces of MDF and having them shatter or shred; at least that's what I've done to correct booboos with polystyrene). I do hope you'll do the tutorial with pictures eventually, I'm fascinated with the whole concept of a plastic kit! Yeah, what they asked. I don't have any plastic kits, but I am wondering if this glue would work well for plastic beads? I have beads that I want to use to make a four poster bed. If this stuff works better than superglue and looks better. I will go with that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heidiiiii Posted November 5, 2006 Share Posted November 5, 2006 Okay I have something to add..I am glad that andrew is testing solvents for the white orchid. I am using Goop household contact adhesive and sealant. It sayssss glues whatever..bonds forever! I have the orchid sitting on my diningroom table and while I was washing dishes yesterday I noticed one of the windows was wonky. I cursed to myself that I must have glued it crooked and it was going to be a bear to fix. Then I forgot about it. Today I was making coffee and the window was gone! I walked over and found it on the table. It fell off! The dried glue is on the window frame... I am going to stop and wait to see what Andrews results contain.. :thumb: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peggi Posted November 5, 2006 Share Posted November 5, 2006 My Orchid came with the same advice. Quick Grip will work, but it's essentially rubber cement, and is messy as hell. Dean sent me the White Orchid for exactly this reason, to evaluate the best adhesives, paints etc. to use on the plastic medium. He posted this a while back. I have been working with plastic for over 30 years. But you know what? You're on your own. I'm just gonna build my Orchid for me, and be happy with it. Please Andrew, don't leave me on my own. Pretty please with sugar on top--give us a tutorial. As you can see, some of us wants to wait and see your results before we proceed. Even if some don't use your ideas, it will at least give us choices and we have a starting point to know which glues to buy and experiment on our own. I don't won't to mess up this beautiful house. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hydroped Posted November 5, 2006 Share Posted November 5, 2006 So what would you suggest using? I have no idea. Truthfully I think on this forum you're the adhesive guru. You know more about what makes adhesives do what they do than anyone else I know. I just know that if I need to take a house appart... and let's face it - if a mistake can be made putting a place together - I'll make it! .. then I want to be able to get it appart. I'm the only person I know who can check the diagram 3 times - section by section- and Still get the darn lighthouse walls glued together in the wrong order! ugh. <sigh> I also like refurbishing old houses and I'd rather spend some careful time working appart the old glue than having to cut a house appart if it needs to come appart to get to anything thing that needs working on. So that adhesive choice wouldn't be mine - doesn't mean it's not a top notch product for someone else and does exactly what they want. Actually I've been of the opinion that there would never be anything I'd want that firmly affixed to anything else... wrong again - I just started working on a new idea and I'm stumped. The process you describe is exactly what I want to do with this but have no idea how so I have to ask the Glue Guru :thumb: Would this solvent work for resin?? I want to make 2 resin parts and basically weld them together so they're one.. - I've never worked with resin before so I have no clue if it's even possible. Any suggestions? -David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chesterfieldzoo Posted November 5, 2006 Share Posted November 5, 2006 ARRRG! Why didn't I wait another day to put together my orchid? I would have loved to have used your suggestion. I had a few seams open up a tad and since I am not using siding or wallpaper, I am working on some trim ideas. I love adhesives that stick for good. I am an afficiando of west system for my wood projects. Also, the quick grip works well but is definitely messy. Think mek will do any clean up on it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wenlaine Posted November 5, 2006 Share Posted November 5, 2006 Andrew, you've got to help me out here. I haven't got a clue what glue to use. Once my White Orchid is together, I don't ever want it to come apart! I'm with Peggi and Heidi here, we need your help! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellencouch Posted November 6, 2006 Share Posted November 6, 2006 lol I'm even further out of my depth than usual ............ I was going to ask what sort of glue grip is, assuming it's a trade name that we won't be able to get here? Now I'm wondering whether superglue might be the answer lol Ellen :thumb: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
havanaholly Posted November 6, 2006 Share Posted November 6, 2006 I'm the only person I know who can check the diagram 3 times - section by section- and Still get the darn lighthouse walls glued together in the wrong order! No you're not (I won't go into gruesome detail, but that problem is not exclusive to you, David!) OK, Andrew, more of us need you & the results of your experimentation than want to make smart remarks, so please share. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doogster Posted November 6, 2006 Author Share Posted November 6, 2006 I have no idea how to set up a tutorial, but if anyone knows I'm all ears. I'll be glad to do one. The Sintra seems like a dream to work with BTW. I cut my test peices off the scrap with kitchen shears and they had a nice clean adge. The parts almost fell out of the sheets, and the edges are smooth as glass. Very minimal cleanup needed here. The stuff is light weight, rigid, but not so much it's brittle. Surface is smooth. And it's really quite tasty. As for mixed media. Such as applying textiles to the plastic, man, every model maker I know uses CA (cyanoacrylate-aka super glue) to do this. And it works. CA has amazing tensile strength (remember the really kewel dude hanging from his hard hat?) but zero shear strength. In other words if you try to pull 2 glued things straight apart you can't, but if you bend the joint it'll snap with no effort. The ONLY alternative I know of is epoxy resin. I'll be working with that stuff soon, along with carbon fibre. Need to fix a part on the .50 scale Airwolf fuse I have in the basement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doogster Posted November 6, 2006 Author Share Posted November 6, 2006 Actually I've been of the opinion that there would never be anything I'd want that firmly affixed to anything else... wrong again - I just started working on a new idea and I'm stumped. The process you describe is exactly what I want to do with this but have no idea how so I have to ask the Glue Guru :yucky: Would this solvent work for resin?? I want to make 2 resin parts and basically weld them together so they're one.. - I've never worked with resin before so I have no clue if it's even possible. Any suggestions? -David Sorry David I have no good news for you. I'm guessing you're thinking of using a casting kit, I have one, they're great. Decent resin kits are polyurethane resin, bad ones are polyester resin. Regardless, resin is totally inert. Solvents work by (slightly) melting the surface of the plastiuc, then by pressing the parts together you weld them. Resin doesn't react to solvents. You might as well hit it with tap water. The only way I know to bond resin is either CA (superglue) or epoxy resin. Epoxy is a pain, and CA, up to now has been unreliable. But now there is black CA, I forgot to get the link for you so I'll be back in a moment. Here's the link: http://www.starshipmodeler.com/cfstore/ind...;Product_ID=636 I've not tried it, but a lot of guys over at SSM have, and they say it's amazing. Not cheap, but John and Linda have the best prices on this kind of stuff anywhere in North America. This is only available as an imported item. From Japan. As an aside, you can get a solvent glued joint apart, it tends to weld both sides of the joint rather than a full thickness weld. Strong as anything, but judicious use of a good sharp knife and you can get the joint apart cleanly. No tear out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Color Me Holly Posted November 6, 2006 Share Posted November 6, 2006 I have no idea how to set up a tutorial, but if anyone knows I'm all ears. I'll be glad to do one. Andrew, how about starting a blog? All of the blogs have a lot of good information. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
havanaholly Posted November 6, 2006 Share Posted November 6, 2006 judicious use of a good sharp knife and you can get the joint apart cleanly. No tear out. Thank you, that answers one of my questions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luvmypoodle Posted November 6, 2006 Share Posted November 6, 2006 would tenax 7r work well on wood? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hydroped Posted November 6, 2006 Share Posted November 6, 2006 As an aside, you can get a solvent glued joint apart, it tends to weld both sides of the joint rather than a full thickness weld. Strong as anything, but judicious use of a good sharp knife and you can get the joint apart cleanly. No tear out. Thanks Doogster - that's the main thing I was against with solvent.. the idea that it would be impossible to take appart if I needed to - but man this stuff is sounding better all the time. About the resin - yep that's it - my idea is making 2 castings then bonding them together to make one thing - looks good in theory.. but could be the worst thing I ever thought of lol :yucky: Thanks for the link I'll check it out -David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minis On The Edge Posted November 6, 2006 Share Posted November 6, 2006 I built the White Orchid a little over a year ago and I am the one who mentioned to Dean that he might want to let People know that the only glue I found that back then that gave a good, strong permanent bond was the Quick Grip. It is a little messy but it was the only thing that did not "give" after being put together for a week. Mine is still standing strong. I used a damp rag to wipe off access glue so Andrew I am enjoying reading you findings . You ARE the Glue Guru around here :yucky: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
havanaholly Posted November 6, 2006 Share Posted November 6, 2006 making 2 castings then bonding them together to make one thingDavid, what about a heat/ mest bond between the two pieces? Would that work? (As in, I sense a potential experiment here) Andrew...You ARE the Glue Guru around here Amen! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hydroped Posted November 6, 2006 Share Posted November 6, 2006 David, what about a heat/ mest bond between the two pieces? Would that work? (As in, I sense a potential experiment here) "You ARE the Glue Guru around here " Amen! Hey how come there was no "amen" when I called him the Glue Guru Just kidding And yep you got that right Holly - I'm in the middle the planning stages for 2 experiments right now - really crossing my fingers and hoping they'll both work :yucky: ... but first I have to get through the experiment I'm working on now so just trying to get my ducks in a row for the resin one. - David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
havanaholly Posted November 7, 2006 Share Posted November 7, 2006 Hey how come there was no "amen" when I called him the Glue Guru Probably because I was still assimilating the glue info... I'm still curious to know about a) fumes and :yucky: best application method. Andrew, is the meth Cl the stuff you can use to glue acrylic panels? And did your kit come with acetate window inserts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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